Tolkienish Qs!

[Minuialeth]

for all tolkien related questions

[faelarwen]

Is it true that some people find JRR Tolkien to be racist?

[Minuialeth]

Yes some people do. Mainly because he made the bad guys have a darker skin colour..etc. now I'm not a total expert on the matter but you can just say it is a matter of taste rather than racism

[faelarwen]

Yup.. to some extend it is true that .. it's like... elves are superior, ethereal and immortal and fair skinned. Orcs and Uruk-hais are like dark and igly and all sorts... men are greedy and cunning... stuff like that.... they have debated this issue for quite awhile though. Wonder what the others will say?

[rivlee]

It is true, def. looking from a modern persepctive. However, you do have to take into account, sadly, the time JRR Tolkien grew up and what he was taught. And that was not exactly a cross-cultural, everyone-is-equal perspective.

And on a lesser note, since he was trying to write a mythology for England, I think that's why he made everyone so light-skinned and fair. Which is funny b/c it's been debated by some the Celts and other Brits pre-Anglo-Saxon invasion, came (somewhat) from Greece who themselves came from most likely the East or Africa(although ancient greeks were blonde-haired and blue-eyed) and so on and so forth.


Although, I do find it quite funny that Tolkien's heros, among all his peoples, are ones who stand out from their "race"'s generally accepted norm. But that's just a thought.

[Leaward]

Good points, Rivlee -- the times and sensibilities were much different than they are now.

I find it interesting that even amongst an imaginary race such as the elves he still manages to create a layered society where there are 'kings' and higher elves lording it over others who would be considered servants. You would think that about three thousand years the servants would be feeling pretty fed up of 'serving' others and would say "enough of this".

[faelarwen]

Hie Rivlee, ;D

U have a point there dude. I mean, Tolkien was born somewhere in ww1 or 2 or whatever.... so i guess he's grown up with that kind of an environment where racism happens, this and that and stuff like that, if you knw what i mean. Yeah and that myth on England? maybe coz he's breed and born in England , and everyone there *well.. mostly everyone* is fair-skinned and stuff, so it's like... influence you knw. You don't expect him to make Gandalf into a Japanese or Elves into Indians rite? Dunno if i make sense or not.....

And yup... JRR Tolkien creates a mythology here. A new world. It's so believable. I agree with u Leaward.

I found this in the net... thought u guys might wanna check it out..

Did JRR Tolkien believe in racial purity?
An undercurrent of the Lord of the Rings seemed to focus on racial purity. The elves were supposed to have the purest blood, followed by the Numenorians, followed by common men, and then down to Orcs. Remember the scandal when Aragorn married Arwen? She was seen as tainting her bloodlines by marrying a "mere" man. Remember the scandal when Faramir married Eowyn? He was said to be diluting the precious Numenorian blood lines. There were also frequent mentions to the "thinning" of the Numenorian blood lines.

Does this obsession with "my race is purer than yours" show that Tolkien was a racist who believed in racial superiority?

[Leaward]

I think it may be just more indicative of a mind-set of that era. Don't forget there really is little trace of a true Englishman in England. What is there is the result of repeated invasions by the Goths, the Vandals, the Vikings, the French, Spanish, Celts, Romans...the true original Englishman would have been short and dark haired.

I imagine if you looked in history similar thoughts about 'thinning' the bloodlines were said about the Romans and Vikings and other lines. Back in the 50's interracial marriage was frowned upon, and the way the Numenorean's are set up, I would think they would not like their line 'thinned' as it makes their lifespan shorter.

Elves -- well, if they interbred with mortals their offspring were mortal. They were not given the choice that Arwen and Elrond were given -- that was a special gift. Could you imagine living to watch your children age and die while you remained unchanged? How sad that would be. So I could see that elves would feel especially bad about having one of their own kind suffer such grief.

[Minuialeth]

true...but I always wondered if half elves can go to the land of Aman or not...

[Leaward]

No, if an elf has a child with a mortal, the child is born mortal and cannot go to Valinar. That's why it's so sad. They would never see their spouse and children again until the end of time, even when they die as mankind go to a different place than elves when they die.

[Minuialeth]

eh...I would hate to put anyone in such grief and it doesn't even happen often..can't they like talk to the valar...protest...do smthg...

[rivlee]

well, that is a bit of the funny part. As well all know, sometimes the Valar can be moved, Luthien shows that.

The other intersting things is: WTF happened to Tuor!?! Tech. he was a mortal man, married to an elf who just happened to sail off to Aman and we don't ever know what happened to him. I mean, yeah, it helped he had more than a few of the Valar on his side, but still, makes you wonder what could have been.

[Minuialeth]

I always wondered about that and at some point I read the pages more than once to actually make myself understand. The problem with romantics like myself is that we always imagine that there's a way and it's too cruel to just say that an amazing love that happens every 2000 years smthg will bring so much pain because the valar are busy drinking their tea and listening to their poetry up in some removed mountain which I can be arsed to remember its name now...Sorry had to say that...

[faelarwen]

Well.. maybe that's the way things goes ya knw. Elves marry mortal, children become mortal, can't go to the land of Aman.... i mean.. that's what they call sacrifice. The elves are willing to sacrifice their immortality for something they believe in. Now that is what i call true love. Like Luthien and Beren rite? ;D

*note - i have NOT read The Silmarillion yet.... tsk tsk*

[Minuialeth]

yes but not all elves are as loved by the valar as Luthien and so not all humans are as lucky as beren...and it also seems peculiar to me that in almost all cases it was a female elf and a male human...